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Author Topic: Smoother Shifting for the 1400 (15 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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Designer

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Posted: Aug 17, 2007 09:29 PM  (Msg. 1 of 15)         

Well guys,........I got pissed.        

Yup,....seems Black Thunder'd be shifting rather hard when really warmed up.   First Gear was really tough to find, and sometimes the KA-CHUNK when shifting just made me wince,....which grated my nerves.            ENOUGH!

So I took the Shifting Mechaniasm Cover off (after drainging the Oil first) and reconnected it all up so I could watch what's going on in there.    

Things looked okay,....I guess.   But there's something wrong here.    So,...I watched it shift up and down many times,..and felt a Grinding Feeling in the Shift Lever.  Traced it back to the Gearshift Cam Driven Gear. (the Middle Piece with the Teeth on it in this pic)



Seems that even though it is bolted in tight by the Gearshft Cam Retainer, it still has some "Float" to it.      This isn't the problem, it's the wear it causes on the inside of Driven Gear Retaining Plate (that Curved Flat Plate on the Right).  

Take a look at the Inside View:



There's alotta Scratches in that Shiney Spot you see.    How'd they get there?  

Well......Seems the Gear Shifting Lever makes the Driven Gear shift "Sideways" a tad on it's shaft (remember that "Float" I mentioned?)   and this Sideways Thrust causes the Driven Gear to move outwards and smack into that little "Tab" on the Retaining Plate, grinding into it and causing Hard Shifts.  

Why this happens is that the Gearshift Lever is Stamped,.....what that means is the the Teeth on it aren't totally square and have a rounded edge to them on the inside, and very Sharp-edges outside (as it's mounted).     You can see the Sharp Edges in this Pic:




So,.......what's the Fix there, Ed?                            Glad you asked!!

What I did was to first File Down the Sharp Edges of the Gearshift Lever Gearteeth.   Then I took careful Filework to that Tab on the Retainer Plate, and then Sanded it down to 320 Grit (almost a Polished Finish).      Here's a Drawing to follow:





Why I did this is that, being so small, there must be alotta Pressure on the Little Tab I figured.    And what with the Driven Gear "Floating", it must not always Lay Flat on that Tab, and rub mostly on the Shraper Edges of it.  

The results?     

Man,...does it Shift Smoother now.        I still can't Downshift from 5th to 1st at a Full Stop, so I must Downshift as I Roll to a Stop (that must be an Internal Parts Issue).      

But the loud KA-Chunk,..is reduced at least 40% (Sometime even more).     And Upper Gear Shifts are a Beautiful Thing.
Edited by Designer on Aug 18, 2007 at 07:32 AM



Twowheelr

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Posted: Aug 17, 2007 10:09 PM  (Msg. 2 of 15)         

Great info there Designer,

  I've always wondered why some of my shifts were smooth and some felt like trying jam
my ford into granny gear why still rolling.
Usually down shifts while going slow, I may tackle this as a winter project. Mark  


93 1400 Intruder gone but not forgotten
now Bandit S 1200  

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Posted: Aug 17, 2007 10:22 PM  (Msg. 3 of 15)         

Why not just replace the worn part?


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Designer

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Posted: Aug 17, 2007 11:16 PM  (Msg. 4 of 15)         

Quote:
PRINCEMO wrote:
Why not just replace the worn part?


Because the Sharp Edges will make it all happen again.  

They Key is to Round Over those Edges  to reduce Resistance to the Movement of the Driven Gear.     Smoothing Out the Flat Surface helps make things Move better.

Also, to Round over the Sharp Edges on the Gerarshift Lever Teeth moves the Center of Force more to the Center of the Gearshift Lever Teeth.   Thus making less Side Thrust on the Driven Gear (which forced it into that Tab in the first place).



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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 04:47 AM  (Msg. 5 of 15)         

Designer,

Why not add a spring washer or bronse shim to zero out any play?  (The Float you refer to in the above, as usual, extremely informative post.)


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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 06:39 AM  (Msg. 6 of 15)         

If you used Amsoil you wouldn't have that problem in the first place


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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 07:40 AM  (Msg. 7 of 15)         

Quote:
Designer wrote:


Because the Sharp Edges will make it all happen again.  

They Key is to Round Over those Edges  to reduce Resistance to the Movement of the Driven Gear.     Smoothing Out the Flat Surface helps make things Move better.

Also, to Round over the Sharp Edges on the Gerarshift Lever Teeth moves the Center of Force more to the Center of the Gearshift Lever Teeth.   Thus making less Side Thrust on the Driven Gear (which forced it into that Tab in the first place).


Won't all the round edges allow it to pop out of gear?


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Designer

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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 07:47 AM  (Msg. 8 of 15)         

Quote:
BugsInMyTeeth wrote:
Designer,

Why not add a spring washer or bronse shim to zero out any play?  (The Float you refer to in the above, as usual, extremely informative post.)


A Good Thought,...However, there's not Enough Room,....and it would interfere with the Driven Gear's Movement. 

Quote:
PRINCEMO wrote:


Won't all the round edges allow it to pop out of gear?

     

Nope, Rounding Off those Edges Help's to Effect the Complete Shift with less Effort and Easier.    Once it's in gear, it's there to stay.  

You see, the Problem is the Floating Driven Gear gets Sideways Thrust induced on it from the Shift Lever.    This Thrust pushes this Gear out of True Alignment (Outwards, against that Tab).   Also, the Sharp Edges on that Tab kinda "Dig Into" that Gear, slowing the Shifting down.      Down enough to cause Hard Shifts, perhaps even hanging it up (as has happened on the Springtail's Shifter when really hot). 
   

This isn't a tough fix to do because you don't take all that much off.   The Shift Linkage and Cover Plate (drain the Oil first).  
Now you're Inside,...next remove the Shift Lever and that Retainer Plate.   Round over those Edges I mentioned, and you're back to putting it all together again and Riding.
Edited by Designer on Aug 18, 2007 at 07:51 AM



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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 10:11 AM  (Msg. 9 of 15)         

This goes a long way to explaining why the shifting on my old Virago went from sorta clunky to nearly glass smooth over the span of 40K miles.  My Intruder, bought at 4K miles, now has 28K miles on it.  It's shifting was clunky, is still sorta clunky, but is slowly getting smoother all the time.

To bad the manufacturer doesn't take a few extra seconds on those stamped parts to deburr and/or smooth them before installation.

Regards, Gary in Sandy Eggo


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Designer

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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 10:29 AM  (Msg. 10 of 15)         

Quote:
Gary Steinweg wrote:
This goes a long way to explaining why the shifting on my old Virago went from sorta clunky to nearly glass smooth over the span of 40K miles.  My Intruder, bought at 4K miles, now has 28K miles on it.  It's shifting was clunky, is still sorta clunky, but is slowly getting smoother all the time.

To bad the manufacturer doesn't take a few extra seconds on those stamped parts to deburr and/or smooth them before installation.

Regards, Gary in Sandy Eggo


Right!      I'm not saying each and every 1400 has this problem, or to the same degree I have had.   You apparently don't have it as much as did I.
  
One of my spare 1400 Motors didn't have this problem and it showed up when I inspected the Retainer Plate Tab,.....not any scratches, just a bit shiney.      

What does seem to affect this is the amount of Rounding you have on the Gearshift Lever  Gear Teeth from it being Stamped, not Machined (not the Driven Gear which doesn't have this problem of One Side being excessively Rounded at the Edge and Sharp at the other).



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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 01:24 PM  (Msg. 11 of 15)         

Quote:
Designer wrote:
Man,...does it Shift Smoother now.        I still can't Downshift from 5th to 1st at a Full Stop, so I must Downshift as I Roll to a Stop (that must be an Internal Parts Issue).      
Edited by Designer on Aug 18, 2007 at 07:32 AM


Great stuff!! And good observations. Could it be that they intended to put in a thrust washer at that point, but never did?  

But,, I'll wager that you will never get any MC tranny to downshift from 5th to first at a full stop!  I say this from my experience rebuilding my Honda 350. That one had a horizontally split case. I could lay the gears in one half of the case and turn them by hand and learn how they operated, and see precisely how shifts occur.  This was important, because I had a blown out counter gear, and a bad shifter drum. Had to replace all that.
I believe the sequence of events was, gear exploded, jammed up drum internally, and in my exuberance, I hit the shifter hard enough to break off the ratchet end on the drum.


Anyway, on the rebuild, I was able to study the tranny operation.  It never was able to go from 5th to 1st without some rotational movement. They all need some rotation to shift properly.  But,, As they go there is also a need for some slack,, which is why some of the gears transmit their power sideways through the "gear dogs". The gear dogs serve two purposes.

1. Allows a more compact design, In effect, "folding over" the gear train on itself. And, 2. The dogs have a "slide area" that allows a few degrees of rotation to allow engagement.  All the gears are always engaged tooth-to-tooth, but they are "active" or not based upon where they are slid on the gear shaft by the shifter forks.

How can they all be engaged all the time you ask? Some of them are indeed geared on the inside and turn at the same rate as the shaft they are on, while the adjacent ones rotate freely on the same shaft.

They engage through the dogs. The dogs and their slots allow for that movement.  The slots can be literally the oval holes in the side of the gear, that adjacent gear's round ones engage,, or they can also set-up as square pegs that stick out and engage flat-spots on the adjacent gear. But the characteristic common to them all is that they allow a few degrees movement.  Not just there for "lightening".

But for that movement to work and be fully effective,, there must be some small rotation in the system going on. Otherwise, you can indeed "shift" and make the gears slide, but many times the dogs don't fully engage, and will not allow further shifting.  They must go fully in and fully out. That is because in the rotation of the drum, the forks must travel in the tracks, meaning the track has to be fully followed and not short-cutted.

The entire poetry of the operation of the shifter drum and how such a simple and beautiful thing and be so complex and precise is something I'll leave to another day.  If you ever have the opportunity to handle a shifter drum and watch how the set of forks operates, it's relatively easy to see.  Three forks, each travelling in their own track, sliding back and forth and engageing/disengageing as they go.  It's a beautiful thing to watch!!  All out of three "squiggely" grooves!


Trogg

Posting now before I time out.........
Edited by Trogg on Aug 18, 2007 at 02:31 PM


Designer

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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 07:12 PM  (Msg. 12 of 15)         

That would explain the impossibility of shifting all those gears at a stop now, wouldn't it?



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Posted: Aug 18, 2007 07:41 PM  (Msg. 13 of 15)         

Indeed! Also explains the shortness of travel, since even if the gears are slid over almost all the way, if the dogs are not engaged in the holes, then it's not in gear. The difference of being in or not is only about the thickness of the holes. (approx. 1/4 of the width of the gear.)  So popping out is a matter of moving only an eighth of an inch or so.

The full shift motion, as I recall is closer to a half inch.   Very neat thing to see!!

Trogg


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Posted: May 23, 2014 09:13 PM  (Msg. 14 of 15)         

does this work on vs800 also. I'm having problems getting it into 4th and 5th


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Posted: May 24, 2014 06:43 AM  (Msg. 15 of 15)         

There seems to be very similar parts between these two models, so I would assume this will help.  

Now do keep in mind that this will not have any affect on the Internal Shifting Mechanism, (the Forks, Drum, Gears, etc.) and the lack of Syncromesh in the Transmissions design.    

There's also sometimes a "Phantom" neutral between those two gears in the 1400 for some reason I have yet to discover.     -Ed


 

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